Empty Chairs - Interview with Stacey Danson

My son cried and cried as I tried to rush home. I wanted to run through the
stop lights as I cursed myself for not leaving earlier. He was only four months.
When I arrived home, my son looked at me teary-eyed as if I were the worst
parent in the world – and I felt like it.

Then I read Empty Chair by Stacey Danson.

When I read A Child Called It, I couldn’t believe that the narrator was only the
third worst case of abuse in the area. What could be worse, I wondered. 

Reading Empty Chairs gave me the answer.

When I read I Know Why the Cagebird Sings, I thought there couldn’t be anything
worse than being sexually abused by a relative.

Empty Chairs taught me things could be much worse.

Even Sister Rose’s pamphlets about the saving teenage prostitutes off the
streets for the charity Covenant House seemed like child’s play in comparison
to Empty Chairs.

It’s hard to imagine any parent being so evil as Stacey Danson’s, aka Sassy. The book shone a light into a dark corner. It’d be difficult to read such horrors if it wasn’t for Sassy. She makes reading this book a pleasure. While terrible things are happening all around her, she somehow finds a way to make it through. Certain scenes, like school and with Animal, I laughed. Other times I cringed. It’s hard to imagine another book that packs a stronger emotional punch. 

I couldn’t help rooting for Sassy. This, more than anything, is a story of an eleven year old girl surviving on the streets.   I found it very moving.  If I didn’t, I would have questioned my own humanity. 

I wanted to ask the author a few questions and was glad she let me.

KJ Kron: I imagine this was a difficult book to write. What inspired you to tell your story?

Stacey Danson: I made a promise to Jenny. Jenny is the 8 year old that you meet at the end of Empty chairs. We remained friends for over four decades. I promised her years ago that one day..some day I would write it; all of it including her story. Jenny commited suicide on September 1^st 2009. I hadn’t kept my promise. Her death and the resultant guilt I felt at somehow having let her down, caused me to finally write it all down.

KJK: Have you read any influential memoirs that helped you decide to write yours?

SD: I have never read one. The diary of Anne Frank was as close as I have ever come to reading of someone else’s life story.

KJ: Where did you get the title for your book?

SD: The Don Mclean song Empty Chairs... it's about lovers I know but the refrain and the words "Empty clothes that drape and fall on Empty chairs" chokes me up every time I hear it..I keep seeing my friends sitting laughing and hunched forward in conversation over these many decades, and I know that this year on December 1st there will only be Jamie and I. The song is a guaranteed trigger for flash backs with me, I love it but I avoid listening to it these days. Same goes for 'Those were the days" 

KJ: Have you noticed any changes since you've gotten your book published?

SD: If you mean changes in the way friends treat me, yes initially...but I sorted that out.{I hope} one very dear male friend suddenly stopped hitting on me, and he's been doing it for twenty years. So I had to tell him you know  "Hey I'm the same female you tried to get into bed only last week. Nothing has changed except the fact that you are now aware of my history, so lighten up already." I have needed to make it clear to all my friends that didn't know a thing about my past, that the book is about me, and my life and what helped make me who the hell I am...If they don't think they can deal with the hard stuff, then don't read it. Like my darling daughter, she is immensely proud of me, and is tooting my horn every chance she gets, but we have discussed it and she can never bring herself to read the book. It makes her too angry, and so sad,that I had to go through that sort of shit. My online friends have been amazingly supportive, they only know me as I am now, a smart ass with attitude and a marshmallow center. It's easier to relax and joke with them, perhaps the fact that we are all writers, KJ. As writers we need to be sensitive to cause and reaction, I think that in turn makes most of us more understanding and hopefully more able to deal with each other's flashes of insecurity.

KJK: At one point, you mention that you went to school beaten up and the teachers ignored it. Do you believe the same thing would happen today?

SD: NO!..Thankfully. This is a long way from the 1960’s when abuse was never discussed. Please bear in mind the time frame this occurred in. “Leave it to Beaver’ was a close as anyone got to reality TV in those days; even the news was whitewashed, until Vietnam, and that’s when the revolution truly began…no innocence left intact after that: but prior to that monumental event, sex was never discussed. Many young women reached adulthood knowing nothing about menstruation, childbirth, or any of the things that are easily discussed today. These were the times of television only ever showing the married couples in single beds. Barbra Eden in ‘I dream of Genie’ had to cover her navel rather than shock the masses. That is the type of world I was born into, sex was a taboo topic, that was giggled about in shame, and never ever openly discussed.

KJK: One thing that’s frustrating when reading your book is your lack of trust.  I can understand it, of course, but was frustrated by it. I couldn’t help but wonder what would have happened if you just told the truth to a teacher, cop, or someone else. Looking back, do you feel there would have been a better way to handle it or do you think you had no choice and did the best thing you could have done.

SD: Cops..that’s a laugh. One of main abusers was a cop. I was threatened with death if I told anyone…anyone at all about what was going on. At that age I wasn’t about to put it to the test. Teachers made a point of not looking at me when I showed up bruised. It was none of their concern. The powers that be of the day simply pretended this type of thing did not happen. What would have happened had I spoken up? I wouldn’t be here having this interview KJ. No doubt about that at all.

KJ: Another thing that just floored me was your age. Eleven! My god, I just wanted to tell Paulie and the pimp and even her employer (more or less) at the bakery – she’s only eleven years old! Do you think it would have mattered if they knew?

SD: Not for a second. Paulie had his own agenda. Mrs McDowell got free workers in exchange for food and the odd packets of smokes. You are dealing with folks that lived on the edge of the crime underground here. They probably suspected I was younger that I sounded, but what point would it have made to have told them, KJ? Where were they gonna send me? Home? No thanks.

KJK: At one point you said you scared runaways that were new to the streets – the ones that looked you in the eye. You said others took advantage of them but you felt like you were doing them a service by scaring them away. What did you do specifically?

SD: It wasn’t just me, the other street kids I ended up with all did it. You could pick the kids that were the “Circus freaks”. These kids were on the streets for one maybe two nights. They weren’t tough, they mostly stayed in groups of at least three…and they made repeated eye contact;  the only thing they were doing was trying to prove to their parents that they would run away if they didn’t get their own way at home. We all knew what would happen to these idiots if they stayed. A street kid that is genuine, will not make eye contact. They will not be wearing clean and modern clothing. They will not have clean hair and be walking around paying radios and trying to look tough. These kids were gonna be pimp fodder…so we used to scare the living shit out of them. I pulled a knife, the other kids all had their own way of dealing with the blow-ins. If they were genuine, we would soon see. Most of the time we were right, and they ran on home to folks that genuinely loved them.

KJ: I love the way the book ends but it leaves the reader hanging. Please tell
me you’re planning to write a sequel.

SD: I have already begun book two. Only just.

KJ: I’m curious. On one hand, I wouldn’t want to see your mother again. On the mother hand, she’s your mom and you must have been curious. Did you ever see her or hear how she’s doing again?

SD: She ceased to exist the day I walked out that door. I heard she died, ten years or so ago. Died of natural causes in her sleep, of old age. I am afraid it didn’t thrill me to hear that.

Some folks will think me a savage for saying that. That of course is their prerogative; I do not have a belief system that includes an afterlife. If I thought of her at all over all those years it was usually to hope she was suffering in some way.

Not a charitable thing to do, but that’s simply the way it is. She was evil. No if’s but’s or maybe’s about it. I firmly believe she was a sociopath. No conscience whatsoever.

 I have had well intentioned folks say to me that perhaps she was abused herself and that’s why she abused. That I am afraid makes me very very angry.

My child came into this world with a mother who would kill to protect her. I was abused horrendously, it made me even more determined that my young one would never know the meaning of a harsh word, a body blow or sexual abuse.

I know that statistics say that the abused child often becomes an abusive parent.

 Not in my world. I knew and still know many many adults that were abused as children, without exception they are wonderful, loving and proud parents. The few who doubted their ability to love a child without causing harm decided very early on NOT to have children at all, rather than risk something in their past causing them to harm a child of their own.

Why would the fact that she gave birth to me make a difference KJ? She was not a mother in any sense of the word, apart from the act of birthing me.

KJ: One of the characters I just loved was Animal. He was probably one of the  nicest people you meet – generous, etc. Do you think he should have done even
more? Did you ever see him around after the book ends?

SD: Animal became a close friend. I lived on those streets a long time KJ. Should he have done more? No. He did what he could at the time, given his own lifestyle and his marital circumstances.

KJ: Paulie ends up not being such a great guy. Did you ever confront him after
or find out what happened to him?

SD: Paulie was always going to be around. He was an established presence on the streets, and he had links to some of the big guys. But yeah, he was confronted. Not only by me but when Animal found out about who had set me up for the guys that raped me, Paulie was paid a visit. Jamie and  a few of the male crew at ‘The Palace’ also paid Drew the pimp a courtesy call.

KJ: Life on the streets can’t be easy. You’re about as tough as they come. How long did you end up living out there?

SD: All up I was out there for Five years. I hit the streets at eleven and I left them at just on sixteen. I don’t know about tough though KJ, I am resilient, and extremely pig-headed.

I had a dream of something better, and nothing and no-one would take that from me.

KJK: I've seen websites where they list sexual offenders. I’ve heard one case where a sexually offender has to wear a T-shirt claiming he is one. There’s also a law in Florida that doesn’t allow sexual offenders / pedophiles within 200 meters or so of a place where children live / go. Do you think that these laws are good or enough?

SD: No. I’ll say no more. I’m afraid that there is NO punishment that satisfactorily addresses this obscenity against the innocent.

KJK: I followed one of your tweets about a ring of pedophiles being
caught. Are you currently helping out with teens? Any suggestions you’d like
to make – such as things to be aware of, etc.

SD: I help anywhere and anytime I can. I am not well physically and have been on a disability pension for a while, but whatever time I can offer is taken up with talking to young folks who need to discuss this stuff with someone that has lived through and beyond it. Or adults that are still struggling with the aftermath.

Things to be aware of or on the lookout for in different areas of abuse…

Physical abuse vs. Discipline

In physical abuse, unlike physical forms of discipline, the following elements are present:

• Unpredictability. The child never knows what is going to set the parent off. There are no clear boundaries or rules. The child is constantly walking on eggshells, never sure what behavior will trigger a physical assault.
• Lashing out in anger. Physically abusive parents act out of anger and the desire to assert control, not the motivation to lovingly teach the child. The angrier the parent, the more intense the abuse.
• Using fear to control behavior. Parents who are physically abusive may believe that their children need to fear them in order to behave, so they use physical abuse to “keep their child in line.” However, what children are really learning is how to avoid being hit, not how to behave or grow as individuals.

Child sexual abuse: A hidden type of abuse

Child sexual abuse is an especially complicated form of abuse because of its layers of guilt and shame. It's important to recognize that sexual abuse doesn't always involve body contact. Exposing a child to sexual situations or material is sexually abusive, whether or not touching is involved.

While news stories of sexual predators are scary, what is even more frightening is that sexual abuse usually occurs at the hands of someone the child knows and should be able to trust—most often close relatives. And contrary to what many believe, it’s not just girls who are at risk. Boys and girls both suffer from sexual abuse. In fact, sexual abuse of boys may be underreported due to shame and stigma.

The problem of shame and guilt in child sexual abuse

Aside from the physical damage that sexual abuse can cause, the emotional component is powerful and far-reaching. Sexually abused children are tormented by shame and guilt. They may feel that they are responsible for the abuse or somehow brought it upon themselves. This can lead to self-loathing and sexual problems as they grow older—often either excessive promiscuity or an inability to have intimate relations.

The shame of sexual abuse makes it very difficult for children to come forward. They may worry that others won’t believe them, will be angry with them, or that it will split their family apart. Because of these difficulties, false accusations of sexual abuse are not common, so if a child confides in you, take him or her seriously. Don’t turn a blind eye!

Warning signs of child abuse and neglect

The earlier child abuse is caught, the better the chance of recovery and appropriate treatment for the child. Child abuse is not always obvious. By learning some of the common warning signs of child abuse and neglect, you can catch the problem as early as possible and get both the child and the abuser the help that they need.

Of course, just because you see a warning sign doesn’t automatically mean a child is being abused. It’s important to dig deeper, looking for a pattern of abusive behavior and warning signs, if you notice something off.

Warning signs of emotional abuse in children

• Excessively withdrawn, fearful, or anxious about doing something wrong.
• Shows extremes in behavior (extremely compliant or extremely demanding; extremely passive or extremely aggressive).
• Doesn’t seem to be attached to the parent or caregiver.
• Acts either inappropriately adult (taking care of other children) or inappropriately infantile (rocking, thumb-sucking, tantruming).

Warning signs of physical abuse in children

• Frequent injuries or unexplained bruises, welts, or cuts.
• Is always watchful and “on alert,” as if waiting for something bad to happen.
• Injuries appear to have a pattern such as marks from a hand or belt.
• Shies away from touch, flinches at sudden movements, or seems afraid to go home.
• Wears inappropriate clothing to cover up injuries, such as long-sleeved shirts on hot days.

Warning signs of neglect in children

• Clothes are ill-fitting, filthy, or inappropriate for the weather.
• Hygiene is consistently bad (unbathed, matted and unwashed hair, noticeable body odor).
• Untreated illnesses and physical injuries.
• Is frequently unsupervised or left alone or allowed to play in unsafe situations and environments.
• Is frequently late or missing from school.

Warning signs of sexual abuse in children

• Trouble walking or sitting.
• Displays knowledge or interest in sexual acts inappropriate to his or her age, or even seductive behavior.
• Makes strong efforts to avoid a specific person, without an obvious reason.
• Doesn’t want to change clothes in front of others or participate in physical activities.
• An STD or pregnancy, especially under the age of 14.
• Runs away from home.

Child abuse and reactive attachment disorder

Severe abuse early in life can lead to reactive attachment disorder. Children with this disorder are so disrupted that they have extreme difficulty establishing normal relationships and attaining normal developmental milestones. They need special treatment and support.

Risk factors for child abuse and neglect

While child abuse and neglect occurs in all types of families—even in those that look happy from the outside—children are at a much greater risk in certain situations.

• Domestic violence. Witnessing domestic violence is terrifying to children and emotionally abusive. Even if the mother does her best to protect her children and keeps them from being physically abused, the situation is still extremely damaging. If you or a loved one is in an abusive relationships, getting out is the best thing for protecting the children.
• Alcohol and drug abuse. Living with an alcoholic or addict is very difficult for children and can easily lead to abuse and neglect. Parents who are drunk or high are unable to care for their children, make good parenting decisions, and control often-dangerous impulses. Substance abuse also commonly leads to physical abuse.
• Untreated mental illness. Parents who suffering from depression, an anxiety disorder, bipolar disorder, or another mental illness have trouble taking care of themselves, much less their children. A mentally ill or traumatized parent may be distant and withdrawn from his or her children, or quick to anger without understanding why. Treatment for the caregiver means better care for the children.
• Stress and lack of support. Parenting can be a very time-intensive, difficult job, especially if you’re raising children without support from family, friends, or the community or you’re dealing with relationship problems or financial difficulties. Caring for a child with a disability, special needs, or difficult behaviors is also a challenge. It’s important to get the support you need, so you are emotionally and physically able to support your child.

WARNING SIGNS, SYMPTOMS, TREATMENT & HOPE FOR CHILDREN WITH INSECURE ATTACHMENT

Attachment is the deep and lasting connection established between a child and caregiver in the first few years of life. It profoundly affects your child’s development and his or her ability to express emotions and develop relationships. If you are the parent of a child with an attachment disorder, such as reactive attachment disorder, you may be physically and emotionally exhausted from trying to connect with your child, only to be met with opposition, defiance, or, maybe hardest of all, indifference.

A child with insecure attachment or an attachment disorder doesn’t have the skills necessary to build meaningful relationships. However, with the right tools, and a healthy dose of time, effort, patience, and love, it is possible to treat and repair attachment difficulties.

Create a secure environment

Children with attachment disorders or other attachment problems have difficulty connecting to others and managing their own emotions. This results in a lack of trust and self-worth, a fear of getting close to anyone, anger, and a need to be in control. A child with an attachment disorder feels unsafe and alone.

So why do some children develop attachment disorders while others don’t? The answer has to do with the attachment process, which relies on the interaction of both parent and child.

Attachment disorders are the result of negative experiences in this early relationship. If young children feel repeatedly abandoned, isolated, powerless, or uncared for—for whatever reason—they will learn that they can’t depend on others and the world is a dangerous and frightening place.

What causes reactive attachment disorder and other attachment problems?

Reactive attachment disorder and other attachment problems occur when children have been unable to consistently connect with a parent or primary caregiver. This can happen for many reasons:

• A baby cries and no one responds or offers comfort.
• A baby is hungry or wet, and they aren’t attended to for hours.
• No one looks at, talks to, or smiles at the baby, so the baby feels alone.
• A young child gets attention only by acting out or displaying other extreme behaviors.
• A young child or baby is mistreated or abused.
• Sometimes the child’s needs are met and sometimes they aren’t. The child never knows what to expect.
• The infant or young child is hospitalized or separated from his or her parents.
• A baby or young child is moved from one caregiver to another (can be the result of adoption, foster care, or the loss of a parent).
• The parent is emotionally unavailable because of depression, an illness, or a substance abuse problem.

I have a very long list of services available to anyone concerned that a child in their immediate vicinity, street , school, neighbor, church etc. is being neglected or abused

I have compiled the list taking in as many sites as I could locate both in the USA the UK and Australia. It is not yet fully comprehensive but I add to it daily. You can find it on my blog

http://staceydansonemptychairs.blogspot.com/2010/09/im-uncertainworried-where-can-i-turn.html

KJ: I just loved this book and hope you give it a try.  Thanks for the great interview and best of luck with Empty Chairs.

Do Comments on Autonomy, etc. Help or Hurt?

I didn’t know to expect when Slush Pile Reader asked for my manuscript to edit.

I felt my first few chapters of Saint Peter Killed God were my strongest since
so many people read and commented on them. Surely those chapters would be
mistake free. But this is what SPR said:

…it seems like the first chapters have been over-edited, so to speak. The first
pages, until approximately chapter five, seem chopped up and pasted together and
do not have the distinctive voice that the latter part of the manuscript has.
It seems as if someone has told you to change things around and your voice has
gotten lost in the process and the beginning seems contrived. The rest of the
book has a much more natural, beautiful flow, drawing the reader in…

So the chapters that didn’t receive any comments were the best ones.

It makes me wonder, should we really listen to the comments we get on on-line
sites where our manuscripts are posted? I know I have and made a lot of changes
here and there because of the suggestions I’ve gotten. Perhaps all of those
changes made things worse.

So what have I done? In chapter one, I’ve cut a lot of the details out that
slowed down the plot. I’ve made the sermon and reasons for walking out of the
church more clear.

And I believe SPKG is much better from the start.

Thanks!

Monday Afternoon – One Year Anniversary – First Book Published by Night

Since Authonomy has been around, not one single book that has made the Editor’s Desk has been offered a contract by Harper Collins.  That’s over 100 books and not a single contract.  It’s surprising that writers still struggle to make it to the top of the heap when there is less than a 1% of getting a contract. 

Slushpilereader.com tried to improve upon that system by allowing the readers to vote which manuscript will be published. 

Tim Roux created Night Publishing and Night Reading in hopes of publishing five books a month.   Every month the members vote.  The entire editors’ desk at Night reading gets published.

What excellent ideas.

I absolutely love the first book Night published, Monday Afternoon by Steve Sangirardi.  The prose drew me in as an English teacher is tempted to cheat on his wife.  It’s easy to say that cheating is wrong, but this book offers such depth of thought and complexities that challenge the reader to think as we grow to understand the characters motivations.  It’s stunning that this book wasn’t offered a contract by a big publisher.  As its one year publication anniversary (March 3, 2010), I decided to play tribute to its author with an interview (you can also find the first chunk of the novel on Authonomy).    

KJ Kron:  When Angelo meets Monica for the first time, it feels like 17 year olds falling in love.  The excitement, the anticipation.  I felt like this was going to be a romance, but I wouldn’t call it that.  How would you describe it?

Steven Sangirardi: Though it might sound cliché, the two are lonely soul-mates…in the sense that they fall in love and fornicate rather quickly. The nineteenth-century British poets call it the finding of the Epipsychidion, the ideal intellectual and sexual counterpart. Monica and Angelo also bring out the child in each other, as when they ‘play’ in the museum or dance the night away.

KJ: He seems to suffer from a lot of Catholic guilt.  Are you Catholic and how much of your Catholic upbringing did you manage to put in this book?

Steven: Considering Angelo’s great guilt over his mother-in-law’s accident, the reader should not be surprised by his decision at the end of the novel. Catholic gods die hard. I myself am a lapsed Catholic, and yet every time I pass a church in the car, I make the sign-of-the-cross. Since you have asked this question, I feel comfortable saying that I’m always asking forgiveness for sins I’ve not yet committed in case I unexpectedly die. Lol.

There is no way you could write this book without being an English teacher.  What is your teaching experience?

Before retiring from Clarke High School in Westbury, NY in 2009, I taught high school and college English for thirty-three years. I began teaching at the University of Missouri at Columbia in 1976. I taught all over New York City for a time. I had to retire at the relatively early age of fifty-four because of Multiple Sclerosis. My bad luck. A writer should write about what he or she knows, right? I like to think that I understand every nuance of teaching.

As an English teacher, I absolutely love this book.  All the allusions to literature I’ve taught.  He also uses allusions from movies, etc.  Monica shares his background in a way his wife can’t.  Does that mean they are alike or is it just their shared love of literature?

As I implied in the first question, their love goes far beyond their love of literature. They both loved the Stamford Nature Center, were both born in July, and together loved watching the film King Kong. They were also, er, complementary in bed. They were especially able to peruse the speech bubble hovering over the other’s head.

Romeo and Juliet is a perfect love because they die without leaving that initial honeymoon phase.  I’m curious if you believe that Monica and Angelo would have been able to stay in that honeymoon phase forever?

That is an excellent point. I think, and several readers have told me the same thing: sooner or later, Angelo’s Catholic Superego was going to prevail. Doesn’t Monica tell him the same thing? These same readers, I should frankly point out, were upset with the ending of the book. The wanted just the opposite to occur.

I read the book Sex in America that states that married couples rarely cheat on each other because they’d feel too much guilt and they couldn’t find the time and most couple that cheat end up getting divorced.  Once Angelo crosses the Rubicon, do you believe that his marriage to Alice is doomed?

Probably. The part of the book that I most enjoyed writing was Angelo’s return-visit home, alone, when he clears out his belongings in preparation for life with Monica, and still he is bombarded with memories and absent voices. In a way, he can’t believe what he is doing. And his wife Alice will never let him forget his marital transgression. If a man takes inventory of his life at any given moment, his life is pretty much the sum total of his choices up to that point of his inventory. Angelo strays from the conjugal path and pays dearly for it. He is like a shuttlecock, fluttering between Connecticut and New Rochelle.

He struggles with his faith in God and his lusts at one point pitting Freud against Jesus.  How can you summarize those two points of view?

Ha. Jesus and Freud play tug-of-war on Angelo…and will likely render him Venus de Milo. Duty vs. Desire, it is a bitch. I suppose the main question of the novel remains: what does a man do after fifteen years of marriage and fatherhood when he falls in love with another woman? Does he repress his impulses, as a moral Catholic spouse should, or does he explode in the name of freedom? We can’t forget that Angelo Aiello is a very decent man who happens to be unhappily married. Then he meets Monica Richardson. Ahem. Maybe, just maybe, the traditional bad angel on his left shoulder is really the good angel, and the good one on his right shoulder is the unhealthy tyrant.

It’s painful to see the way he treats his wife, yet there is good in him.  His wife is frustrated that he can empathize with his students but not her. Do you blame his lack of moral consistency due to being in an uncomfortable situation?

I think Angelo has come to know the B.B. King song: “The Thrill is Gone.” He married Alice too quickly due to her physical beauty, and now that the Beauty has vanished---some of the reason for which is Alice’s own fault--- Angelo finds his new thrill in a very unexpected place. In Angelo’s defense, he didn’t intentionally intend to hurt his wife and daughter, as he tells them. Nonetheless, if Angelo were brought before some Oprah tribunal comprised of a jury of women, Angelo would be lapidated, stoned to death; then his decapitated head sentenced to a pillory.  

I like the line about how he hates Billy Collins’ poetry and they prefer the classics, sonnets.  Do you share that point of view and what are some of your favorite poems / poets?

Like Robert Frost, I am opposed to any poet who plays tennis without a net, that is, relies almost entirely on Free Verse. Billy Collins is actually a good poet whom I enjoy. But open any magazine or journal or anthology, and behold the fast-food poetry that is usually composed in, er, five minutes. My favorite poets are Yeats, Frost, Stevens ad infinitum. I am a poet myself and have written two hundred sonnets.

Your style is different.  Long paragraphs and long sentences which really shows the confusion Angelo goes through.  It’s different from much of the modern fiction I read with short paragraphs and choppy sentences.  Are you critical of modern literature the Angelo abhors modern poetry or do you like modern fiction?  When reading your book, two come to mind: The Corrections, a modern piece of fiction and The Death of Ivan Ilych, a classic.  Which would you say is closer to your style? 

Thanks for that compliment. When I read Dickens, Franzen, Tolstoy, Boyle, Faulkner, Morrison, Joyce---the list is endless--I feel like an excited second-graded waving his hand, and it feels good playing the second grader vis-à-vis these masters because there is always something to learn. My writing is eclectic: I am influenced by everyone I am reading at the time. In fact, three years ago my wife and I were at Stop and Shop. I was browsing the book section as usual, while my wife went up and down the aisles. I culled from the shelf an author I had heard a lot about, someone poohed-poohed by literati. It was Nicholas Sparks’ True Believer. I read it and understood the cylinders and pistons and belts of a best-seller. That book taught me much, and Monday Afternoon is somewhat based on it.

This is a 90s book, which made me wonder – did you write it during the 90s? How long did it take to write?  How many drafts did you go through?  How long was it sitting on your shelf before you tried to publish it?

I wrote the book sporadically from 2005-2007, then honed it after my retirement from teaching, four, five hours a day. Allow me to include the most important statement ever made about writing. It’s from Thomas Mann’s Tonio Kroger: “You cannot pluck a single fruit from the laurel tree of art without paying for it with your entire life.” After I retired, I felt such a guilty void that I sublimated that guilt into writing, turned my blood into ink. Writing, as Mann suggests, becomes your obsession.

You go through a full ranges of emotions in this book.  Which do you prefer writing, the joyful or the painful scenes?

I thoroughly enjoyed writing the scene where Angelo and Monica make love for the for the first time and go dancing for the first time entirely enmeshed in that Dirty Dancing number. I also thoroughly enjoyed writing about Angelo’s sister-in-law’s death and his compunction returning home to gather his possessions, etc., for his new life with Monica. I think any writer must be able to don both the comic and the tragic mask.

One of my co-workers said that the English department is full of broken dreams.  That’s true in my case, struggling novelist.  And that’s the case with your two main characters.  Do you think anything would have changed if they were published poets?

Sounds like the Green Day song. Who knows? They might have been too content with their lives to seek the other person. I’ll end with this confession---as I wrote this novel, I fell in love with my character Monica Richardson. I was anxious to discover what she was going to say and do the next day, as soon as I, the author, awoke. I began missing her as soon as the book was finished. Life on the planet.

I see you have a new novel out.  Tell me a little about it.

My new novel, also published by Night Reading, is A Shakespearean View of Freud. Around 1980, I read something by the critic Harold Bloom that sparked my interest. Bloom wrote that he was getting tired of reading Freudian interpretations of Shakespeare. Why couldn’t someone write a Shakespearean interpretation of Freud? Times being what they were, I attempted the task.

Tim Roux, the founder of Night Publishing, decided to publish your book first.  How did you two meet?

I met Tim on the website Speak Without Interruption. We exchanged writings, and Tim asked to see my novel. I owe him a lot.

Best of luck with A Shakespearean View of Freud and continued success with Monday Afternoon.

What it's Like to be Offered a Contract

The moment I finished watching Robocop, I wanted to be a writer.

I understood the satire.  It was funny.  It was violent.  What else could you want in a movie?

I was 19.

Four years later I finished writing my first manuscript:  Pinkie System.  It took place in the future.  Pockets were a thing of the past.  Credit cards, money, keys, etc. was all stored in one’s pinkie.  Instead of key holes, there were pinkie holes.  Instead of swiping one’s credit card, one swiped a pinkie. The problem: a group of thugs went around chopping people’s pinkies off and stealing all that they owned.

I imagined Pinkie System being an international best seller.  There would be an audio book and a movie deal.  In the future, it’d be required reading in high schools since all my predictions about the future would come true. 

I was kind enough to share my brilliant manuscript with my roommate Ed and my mother.

Ed and I were having a party.  As I walked down the steps, I heard Ed talking to Christina Greenwood, a girl I had a crush on.  He started talking about Pinkie System, so I stopped and eavesdropped.  “Karl’s book Pinkie System is the worst book I’ve ever read.  Every page he says ‘pinkie’ this and ‘pinkie’ that.  I swear if I see the word ‘pinkie’ one more time I’m throwing Karl’s manuscript out the window.”

Was it really that bad?  I asked my mom what she thought of it.  “Well,” she said, pausing to look for the right word.  “I read it.”

That’s where my dreams of making a movie deal and selling tons of copies vanished.  I buried those crazy fantasies as stupidity of my youth.  But lately I’ve been forced to consider those possibilities again – no matter how farfetched – when Slush Pile Reader offered me a contract.

I figured the contract would be simple.  A page or two covering the most basic things.  Kind of like the EZ tax form.  It ended up being 19 pages.

I read through it.  There were a few words I didn’t know, but I thought I understood most of it.  I wasn’t too sure what would happen if it became a movie, an audio book, etc.  A friend of mine, Ben, is a lawyer.  I told him about it and he asked to see it.  I said it was so unlikely that any thing major would happen.

“Still, you should protect yourself,” he said.  Ben didn’t deal with book contracts, but another lawyer in his firm did.  That lawyer gave me an explanation of what was in the contract.  He offered his services to re-write the contract for a decent price, so I took him up on it.

There were a few minor points that Slush Pile Reader and I had, but in the end it all worked out.  It seems that different lawyers have there own way of phrasing things.  All and all I’m happy about it.  Signing a contract makes things seem official.  I no longer feel like I’ll never get published.  It’s right around the corner. 

And as I pondered the points of the contract with a lawyer, I had to entertain outlandish dreams just so I’d know what would happen.  For a moment, I felt like a teenager again, walking out of Robocop with a head full of dreams.

An Announcement

I never like the first Monday of the month.  Right after the bell rings to release the students, all the teachers have to go to the auditorium.  The staff meeting means less time for grading and that Xavier is going to be in daycare for an extra hour as I learn about the latest school district’s latest acronyms.  We have a ton: AYP, CFA, PPP, and SOL (I’m serious, but it’s not what you’re thinking – it’s Standards of Learning) to name a few.

The February staff meeting began with our principal saying, “Congratulations to our own Karl Kronlage whose book will be published by Slush Pile Reader.”  I scanned the crowd looking for my wife – she had to be the one who told the principal.

We have a large staff – there are 2,700 students and close to 200 teachers.  Right away, the teachers around me started congratulating me, telling me they didn’t know I had written a novel, what was it about, and could they have an autographed copy. 

Twenty-two years ago when I wrote my first manuscript, I freely told people that I wanted to write novels.  But as the years went on and people asked if I any of my books were released yet, I felt like a fraud or a failure saying, “I’ve written three novel but none of them are published.” 

I hesitate telling anyone that I have written a novel. When is someone a writer?  After writing a novel?  Getting it published?  Making money off of it?  Earning enough to quit the day job?  Maybe I have the wrong question. When does a writer stop telling people that he or she writes?

I went part-time twice to write Saint Peter Killed God (2000-2001 and 2007-2008), but I didn’t advertise it.  If I did, then I’m sure people would have wondered – when is Karl getting published? 

Now that the cats out of the bag, I’m a little overwhelmed.  Just trying to make copies, I’m stopped by two or three people asking me questions about my book and congratulating me.  I’m not sure how I’m supposed to act.  I just smile a lot.

My wife said that she told the principal because he always asks the staff to email any good news.  I guess she did the right thing but I feel like I’ve been exposed, which isn’t such a bad thing.

Catching Up with Cathrine Chisnall, author of Descending and Surfacing

One website that is publishing writers I’ve read on-line is Night Reading.  They are making dreams come true.  The first book I bought from Night Publishing was Catherine Chisnall’s Descending, which I started reading on slushpilereader.com. Her book really stuck with me for days after I read it. I wanted to talk to Catherine about it. 

KJ Kron: I think of a romance as a story where the two potential lovers are separated by an obstacle, like Romeo and Juliet’s family’s hate each other. In Descending, Jamie, the student, and Emily, the teacher’s assistant, are separated by many of society’s taboos. But I wouldn’t call this a romance. How would you describe it?

Catherine Chisnall: I would say firstly it’s a cautionary tale. ‘Don’t get involved with students, whatever you do!’

I have read up about cautionary tales.Apparently they are a distinct type of story, passed down in folklore probably from when humans first developed a moral code. Here is Wikipedia’s definition:

‘There are three essential parts to a cautionary tale, though they can be introduced in a large variety of ways.
First, a taboo or prohibition is stated: some act, location, or thing is said to be dangerous. (Emily realising she shouldn’t get involved with a student).
Then, the narrative itself is told: someone disregarded the warning and performed the forbidden act. (Emily, despite her own knowledge and friends’ warnings, has a relationship with Jamie)
Finally, the violator comes to an unpleasant fate, which is frequently related in large and grisly detail. (I won’t say what Emily and Jamie’s fate is, as I don’t want to give the story away, but it is appropriate).

However, when asked to choose a genre from a modern list, there isn’t a ‘cautionary tale’ category, so I have been calling it a ‘contemporary drama’.

My friend, Ruth Francisco (author of Amsterdam 2012, a masterpiece), summed Descending up well. ‘Desperate people doing desperate things.’ I couldn’t put it better myself.

KJ: Like Emily, you’re a teacher assistant. How long have you been working as one and how would you describe the job?

CC: I was a learning support assistant or LSA, (which is what they are called in England) for about ten years. I’m not now.

In 2009, due to health and family problems and being stuck in a college where I felt useless and unnecessary, I decided to call it a day and went back to being a full time mum.

I absolutely loved being a learning support assistant when I started in 1999, but it really depends on the environment you work in. I felt I had done all I could in education, I was drained and exhausted, so it was time to stop. Apparently this sort of burn out is common in the caring sector. You have to be sensitive to do that sort of job, but inevitably being sensitive leads to burn out.

People think we just sit there doing nothing, but apart from helping students with their learning, we are carefully monitoring the atmosphere in the classroom, quelling arguments before they escalate, noticing who needs help with what, when and how, and when to stop helping students who are trying to get you to do the work for them.

We must also reinforce the teacher’s discipline while simultaneously building supportive relationships with the students. They will tell us things they won’t tell the teacher, their mum or girlfriend/boyfriend, so we also have to judge when they are in danger and pass the information on e.g. if they are being abused, or getting in with a bad crowd.

It is a very delicate balance of a job. You are not a teacher, in control and unchallengeable. You are not a student, even though you sit with them and they trust you. You have to walk the line of being firm but fair to all, including when the teacher is being unfair to the student or they are in direct conflict- you have to take the teacher’s side whatever your own feelings about the justice of the situation.

KJ: You really get inside the head of Emily and make her likable even though some of her actions made me want to yell at her. What are her strengths and weaknesses?

CC: I am amazed at the sympathetic reaction to Emily from so many readers. I assumed everyone would condemn and dislike her, as some readers indeed do. Everyone has had a different reaction to her.

Anyway, her strengths, hm… that is a hard question. Maybe doing the job in the first place? As a woman in an entirely male college, she has to be strong because it’s a lonely situation. I have observed that single sex environments are rather unhealthy. All-male places become very competitive, with everyone obsessed with who is Alpha male. All-female places become very bitchy and petty, probably for a similar reason. I think men and women need to live together for harmony. That sounds very hippy-ish! (laughs)

Weaknesses. Giving in to her feelings for Jamie and just thinking ‘sod it, I’ve had enough of being sensible and alone.’ Ignoring the fact that she’s doing the wrong thing, even though she knows she is. Conveniently ignoring the fact that however much she fancies him, he’s still just a kid.

KJ: As a teacher, I’ve run into a few students like Jamie. Why is Emily attracted to him?

CC: I think it’s cos she’s a nice, middle class girl and he’s a bit of rough! I don’t know if you say that in America. She hasn’t gone out with someone like him before, I think her previous boyfriends have been a bit wishy washy.

It’s the old ‘good girl, bad boy’ attraction which probably began with the first humans. She has been the good little girl for so long: helping others, keeping quiet, struggling on alone. Then along comes Jamie, whirling into her life and turning it upside down. She wonders what it would be like to live like he does, not being cautious and careful all the time, just doing what he wants to when he wants to. He is the opposite of her and they say opposites attract.

And the other thing of course is that Jamie is there to look after her in the lift when she is in danger. There’s probably a bit of ‘oh my hero’ in there too, perhaps. I only just thought of that!!

KJ: This is my 15th year as an English teacher and twice I’ve heard of young female teachers who have had affairs with older students in my school district (ten high schools). It’s not very common but it happens. Did you know of a case in the UK that inspired you to write this book?

CC: Yes, there was a case on the news soon after I began working in learning support. A teacher had an affair with a 15 year old boy at her school. I watched a documentary about it, cos I wondered what sort of person she was to do that.

She seemed rather sad and lonely, she had moved into the town to take a new job and didn’t know anyone. It seems the students were the only ones to make friends with her.

Anyway, I wondered how she got involved with the student. She didn’t seem like an evil paedophile abusing an innocent child, because he wasn’t a child, but he obviously wasn’t a man either. I felt sorry for her as it can’t have been one sided, he must have been willing. She went to prison cos he was under 16, the age of consent.In that case, it was straightforward: she was wrong, he was right.

I wondered what would happen if this sort ofrelationshiptook placewith a student over 16, not in a school setting and perhaps with an LSA, not a teacher. It wouldn’t be so clear cut. LSAs are far closer to the students than teachers are. Teachers are in control at the front of the class, while LSAs sit among the students, like their confidantes.

In my job, I heard no end of rumours about relationships and attractions between staff and students, so I wondered what would really happen in such a relationship.It wouldn’t go right, that’s for sure!

Hence Descending.

KJ: The Brits use slightly different terms that what we use in the states. You referred to "college” and I quickly realized you weren’t talking about a “university”. Do American readers have any questions that need clarifying and what are they?

CC: Ah yes. We have ‘secondary schools’ which take children up to 16, or 18 if there is a sixth form college. Schools are very structured and don’t treat pupils as adults.

Then there are ‘Colleges of Further Education’ which take students from 16 up to any age, including adults over 18. They are much less structured and the students are treated like adults from age 16 and expected to behave like them. This is the grey area I wanted to explore.

‘University’ is called ‘Higher Education’ which means the studentsare academically inclined, have ‘A levels’ and are over 18. Therefore they are adults. If they had relationships with lecturers it would be ‘frowned on’ but not illegal.

KJ: As a teacher’s assistant, Emily seems to have a different relationships with different teachers. Would you say that mirrors what you experience?

CC: Definitely. Some teachers are extremely aware of what is going on all round the classroom: which students are having a feud; who has home problems; who is psyching out whom. They know exactly what to do to keep order. In those lessons I could do my job of supporting the students’ learning without having to deal with bad behaviour.

Some teachers do not notice the undercurrents in a class and simply deliver the lesson while the students play up. In those classes I would usually work with a quieter student because if not it meant having to take on discipline and control of the students. I did not have the authority to do this and anyway, it’s not technically my job.

There were also some teachers who knew well what my job was, shared lesson plans and objectives with me and made it straightforward for me to simply work with students’ on their targets.

Other teachers did not understand and thought I was a general dogs body, there to make the tea, or expected me to take on the discipline role with no practice or authority. I learned very early not to do that!

Legally, learning support assistants are not supposed to be left alone in the classroom with students, as we are unqualified. This is in case there is an accident where a child hurts themselves or some other incident which could lead to legal action. I have occasionally been left alone in a classroom by certain teachers.

Teaching is full of different people and there is little consistency, because everyone is human and does things differently. If the government wants everyone to teach in the same way, they should employ robots!

KJ: In a couple of places in your book, the students try to intimidate Emily. Have you ever experienced or witnessed something similar with your students?

CC: Yes, I have. But firstly I must say that even though I’ve worked in some very rough, deprived areas, the vast majority of the time the students have been pleasant and cooperative. Despite the fact that most of them had terrible home lives and problems, such as abusive or absent parents, poverty, or having to be ‘the man of the house’ at age 11 etc.

However, teenagers will always try and intimidate people, I think especially LSAs because they know we are unqualified andnot ‘proper teachers’.They assume we are stupid because we are ‘just LSAs’.

I was shocked when I first started work, because when I was at school 30 years ago no one ever talked back to teachers. These days, answering back is normal. I have been asked all sorts of intimate questions, been pushed and ostracised, especially when I was a new LSA. It got better as the students got to know me: “Miss is alright, don’t talk to her like that!” etc.

When I was younger, I was occasionally sexually propositioned by the older boys. I think most women in education under the age of about 60 have been propositioned by students! One of those times could really have ended badly but luckily another student stepped in. He said ‘you’ve got no chance with her, mate, she’s got a husband.’ Which was sexist and reassuring at the same time!

That was another thing which prompted me to write Descending. What if I wasn’t happily married and didn’t have a husband? Would I have been ‘fair game’? What if I was a different person- young, lonely, unhappy? Would I have been tempted by a man-child like that?

Having grown up in a prim and proper middle class area, I was amazed how much more physically mature kids in working class areas were. There was a girl in year 7 (i.e. 11 years old), who could easily pass for a 16 year old and most of the boys looked like men at age 14. I know people don’t like to talk about the class system, but it still exists in the different maturity rates of children, according to my observations of schools in different areas. Middle class children tend to be far ahead intellectually, while working class children tend to be far ahead physically and emotionally.

Of course if intimidation happens in schools, there is a clear cut ‘chain of command’ to appeal to e.g. Head of Year, who tells the students off and threatens them with dire consequences if they don’t behave. In Further Education colleges, there isn’t this clear cut structure, so it is possible that someone,e.g. Emily, wouldn’t know where to turn.

Whether you are intimidated or not depends on how kindly you treat the students and how well you know them. I was generally kind and didn’t confront them, so they were generally nice to me.

KJ: The humiliation Emily must feel to have her entire situation out in the open but still coming to work. In the states it takes a huge offense to fire an employee. Is the same true in the UK? Is that why they didn’t fire Emily?

CC: I am honestly not sure, I was just guessing at what might happen. I didn’t ask anyone, I speculated. Because Jamie is over 16, the age of consent, it is not legally or technically an offence for her to have a relationship with him. It is just ‘frowned on’ and discouraged.

I think Emily was fired because of the consequences of the relationship i.e. Jamie got into fights and trouble because of her, and there is a 13 year age difference between them. And of course the college management was worried about the college reputation. They didn’t want to appear to condone such a relationship in front of the other colleges in the area, so they had to sack her. I don’t think they could keep Emily employed under those circumstances, but it was not illegal.

KJ: Emily takes Jamie out to a club, isn’t overly worried about STDs, is honest about her relationship with Jamie to her superior, and seems hurt by how others react to her. Would you call her innocent or reckless?

CC: Reckless. She doesn’t care anymore. She’s had enough of being a good little girl, doing the right thing all the time and just getting the reward of being more and more lonely and unhappy. She basically thinks ‘fuck it, I’m going to do something silly for once.’ She’s reached that point of not caring about herself or anything else anymore. I think she is on the verge of a mental breakdown, to be honest.

That is the attraction of Jamie. He couldn’t be a less suitable boyfriend, so she picks him as something different, a change in her life. There is that saying ‘if you do what you’ve always done, you’ll get what you’ve always got.’ So she makes a change and doesn’t do what she’s always done. In fact, she doesn’t even choose, she just lets it all happen really.

KJ: I haven’t read many books like this. Maybe Lolita. What books have you read that are similar and what are your favorite types of books?

CC: I haven’t read any similar books, not even Lolita. I have heard of that book about a teacher having a relationship with a school boy and also an older teacher, Notes on a Scandal. I watched half the film of the book, but realised the story isn’t truly about the teacher’s relationship with the boy. It is about the young teacher’s relationship with the older, possibly lesbian, teacher, so it’s not really comparable to Descending. I don’t mean to sound dismissive, sorry. Now I’ve got Descending published I might read Notes on a Scandal to see what it’s like. I didn’t want to read it and get confused with it and my story.

Descending goes right into the relationship between Emily and Jamie, its right in your face. I wanted to write it in the first person to get more into Emily’s head, so people might understand her better. I hopefully don’t flinch or gloss over anything about the relationship.

Favourite types of books… not sure. I don’t get the time to read these days, I do more writing! I generally read popular psychology books, not novels. I also did a Sociology course last year, so I read those sociology books as well. I have done so much studying of literature in the past, I think it’s put me off reading fiction! (laughs) At the moment I am reading ‘Making a Living without a Job,’ by Barbara Winter. Something for us all to think about!

KJ: It was a pleasure reading your book. I got to experience a world I hope to avoid (smiles). How long did it take you from the time you started writing it until the time it was published?

That is kind of what I thought. Other people apart from me must wonder what sort of person would have an affair with a student, so hopefully they got the same experience as you.

It took me about 6 months from start to finish. I wrote it in December 2009 in a few weeks, it just poured out. Then I put it on various sites: Authonomy, Slush Pile Reader, and Night Reading for critiquing. It was picked up by Night Publishing in May 2010, then finally published in July.

There is a sequel, as you know, called Surfacing, which was published in November 2010. I was amazed that so many people said ‘oh, poor Emily, what happens to her next?’ and wanted me to write a sequel. So I did. Jamie is in it too, cos I wanted to see what happened to him next as well.